[openstack-dev] [tc][infra][release][security][stable][kolla][loci][tripleo][docker][kubernetes] do we want to be publishing binary container images?
doug at doughellmann.com
Wed May 17 19:22:24 UTC 2017
Excerpts from Michał Jastrzębski's message of 2017-05-17 11:36:40 -0700:
> On 17 May 2017 at 11:04, Doug Hellmann <doug at doughellmann.com> wrote:
> > You've presented some positive scenarios. Here's a worst case
> > situation that I'm worried about.
> > Suppose in a few months the top several companies contributing to
> > kolla decide to pull out of or reduce their contributions to
> > OpenStack. IBM, Intel, Oracle, and Cisco either lay folks off or
> > redirect their efforts to other projects. Maybe they start
> > contributing directly to kubernetes. The kolla team is hit badly,
> > and all of the people from that team who know how the container
> > publishing jobs work are gone.
> There are only 2 ways to defend against that: diverse community, which
> we have. If Intel, Red Hat, Oracle, Cisco and IBM back out of
> OpenStack, we'd still have almost 50% of contributors. I think we'll
> much more likely to survive than most of other Big Tent projects. In
> fact, I'd think with our current diversity, that we'll survive for as
> long as OpenStack survives.
> Also all the more reasons why *we shouldn't build images personally*,
> we should have autonomous process to do it for us.
> > The day after everyone says goodbye, the build breaks. Maybe a bad
> > patch lands, or maybe some upstream assumption changes. The issue
> > isn't with the infra jobs themselves. The break means no new container
> > images are being published. Since there's not much of a kolla team
> > any more, it looks like it will be a while before anyone has time
> > to figure out how to fix the problem.
> > Later that same day, a new zero-day exploit is announced in a
> > component included in all or most of those images. Something that
> > isn't developed in the community, such as OpenSSL or glibc. The
> > exploit allows a complete breach of any app running with it. All
> > existing published containers include the bad bits and need to be
> > updated.
> I guess this is problem of all the software ever written. If community
> dies around it, people who uses it are in lots of trouble. One way to
> make sure it won't happen is to get involved yourself to make sure you
> can fix what is broken for you. This is how open source works. In
> Kolla most of our contributors are actually operators who run these
> very containers in their own infrastructure. This is where our
> diversity comes from. We aren't distro and that makes us, and our
> users, more protected from this scenario.
> If nova loses all of it's community, and someone finds critical bug in
> nova that allows hackers to gain access to vm data, there will be
> nobody to fix it, that's bad right? Same argument can be made. We
> aren't discussing deleting Nova tho right?
I think there's a difference there, because of the way nova and the
other components currently have an intermediary doing the distribution.
> > Contrast that with a scenario in which consumers either take
> > responsibility for their systems by building their own images, by
> > collaborating directly with other consumers to share the resources
> > needed to build those images, or by paying a third-party a sustainable
> > amount of money to build images for them. In any of those cases,
> > there is an incentive for the responsible party to be ready and
> > able to produce new images in a timely manner. Consumers of the
> > images know exactly where to go for support when they have problems.
> > Issues in those images don't reflect on the community in any way,
> > because we were not involved in producing them.
> Unless as you said build system breaks, then they are equally screwed
> locally. Unless someone fix it, and they can fix it for openstack
> infra too. Difference is, for OpenStack infra it's whole community
> that can fix it where local it's just you. That's the strength of open
The difference is that it's definitely not the community's problem in
that case. I'm looking at this from a community perspective, and not the
deployer or operator.
> > As I said at the start of this thread, we've long avoided building
> > and supporting simple operating system style packages of the
> > components we produce. I am still struggling to understand how
> > building more complex artifacts, including bits over which we have
> > little or no control, is somehow more sustainable than those simple
> > packages.
> Binaries are built as standalone projects. Nova-api has no
> dependencies build into .rpm. If issue you just described would happen
> in any of projects openstack uses as dependency, in any of these ,
> same argument applies. We pin specific versions in upper constraints.
> I'm willing to bet money of it that if today one of these libs would
> release CVE, there is good change we won't find out.
I don't understand what you're saying here. How do constraints we use in
our test gate enter into this?
> Bottom line, yes, we do *package* today with PIP. Exactly same issues
> apply to pip packages if versions of dependencies are fixed, which
No, they're not the same. At all.
They are different in 3 ways:
1. The formats published to PyPI are source formats (sdist) and
a developer-friendly-but-not-production-ready format (wheel).
2. Most of our services are not packaged and published to PyPI. The
libraries are, to make them easy to consume in our CI (and for
other developers to use, in some cases). Some services are, for
3. The artifacts that are published to PyPI contain *only the bits
needed to make up that package* and do not contain anything
produced by anyone else. There are *references* to dependencies,
but the actual *code* from those dependencies is not built into
Item #3 means that even for cases where #1 and #2 don't apply
issues in the dependencies are very clearly not our responsibility
because we did not package and deliver them.
I can't tell from this discussion if you see my point about the
risk that changing our policy about publishing binary images would
bring on, and so it's starting to feel like this conversation is
not really useful. I'm going to give it a rest for a few days and then
write up a TC resolution to try to summarize this thread.
> they are in a large portion. I guess that's a larger issue which we
> should address and has nothing to do whatsoever with container
>  https://github.com/openstack/requirements/blob/master/upper-constraints.txt
> > Doug
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