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On 29/07/2016 21:59, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> One of the outcomes of the discussion at the leadership training
> session earlier this year was the idea that the TC should set some
> community-wide goals for accomplishing specific technical tasks to
> get the projects synced up and moving in the same direction.
>
> After several drafts via etherpad and input from other TC and SWG
> members, I've prepared the change for the governance repo [1] and
> am ready to open this discussion up to the broader community. Please
> read through the patch carefully, especially the "goals/index.rst"
> document which tries to lay out the expectations for what makes a
> good goal for this purpose and for how teams are meant to approach
> working on these goals.
>
> I've also prepared two patches proposing specific goals for Ocata
> [2][3].  I've tried to keep these suggested goals for the first
> iteration limited to "finish what we've started" type items, so
> they are small and straightforward enough to be able to be completed.
> That will let us experiment with the process of managing goals this
> time around, and set us up for discussions that may need to happen
> at the Ocata summit about implementation.
>
> For future cycles, we can iterate on making the goals "harder", and
> collecting suggestions for goals from the community during the forum
> discussions that will happen at summits starting in Boston.
>
> Doug
>
> [1] https://review.openstack.org/349068 describe a process for managing community-wide goals
> [2] https://review.openstack.org/349069 add ocata goal "support python 3.5"
> [3] https://review.openstack.org/349070 add ocata goal "switch to oslo libraries"

I am confused. When I proposed my patch for doing something very similar
(Equal Chances for all projects is basically a multiple release goal) I
got the following rebuttals:

 > "and it would be
 > a mistake to try to require that because the issue is almost always
 > lack of resources and not lack of desire. Volunteers to contribute
 > to the work that's needed will do more to help than a
 > one-size-fits-all policy."

 > This isn't a thing that gets fixed with policy. It gets fixed with
 > people.

 > I am reading through the thread, and it puzzles me that I see a lot
 > of right words about goals but not enough hints on who is going to
 > implement that.

 > I think the right solutions here are human ones. Talk with people.
 > Figure out how you can help lighten their load so that they have
 > breathing space. I think hiding behind policy becomes a way to make
 > us more separate rather than engaging folks more directly.

 > Coming at this with top down declarations of how things should work
 > not only ignores reality of the ecosystem and the current state of
 > these projects, but is also going about things backwards.

 > This entirely ignores that these are all open source projects,
 > which are often very sparsely contributed to. If you have an issue
 > with a project or the interface it provides, then contribute to it.
 > Don't make grandiose resolutions trying to force things into what you
 > see as an ideal state, instead contribute to help fix the problems
 > you've identified.

And yet, we are currently suggesting a system that will actively (in an
undefined way) penalise projects who do not comply with a different set
of proposals, done in a top down manner.

I may be missing the point, but the two proposals seem to have 
similarities - what is the difference?

When I see comments like:

 > Project teams who join the big tent sign up to the rights and
 > responsibilities that go along with membership. Those responsibilities
 > include taking some direction from the TC, including regarding work
 > they may not give the same priority as the broader community.

It sounds like top down is OK, but previous ML thread / TC feedback
has been different.

- Graham

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