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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi Marc! In the order of your comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am fine and hope you are too!! I know all of you have been carefully working on these issues and it has been quite a while since I have been in the trenches. So apologies if I am speaking “out of school,” but here are my thoughts:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think the Executive Director would make the call, and would probably want the advice of legal counsel. I want to stress that I am talking only about exceptional cases. The Board can set parameters for the ED and can set them as conservatively as they think wise. In any domain the application of rules with human judgment can lead to unintended and unwanted results. The Foundation does not have a judiciary, but the Bylaws do contemplate the ED having this type of discretion on intellectual property matters. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>On the patent risk – forgive me if I missing something, but I am not sure I see much additional risk here either. Any contributor can expose the project to the risk of a patent infringement claim by someone outside of the community. I don’t think the CLA helps manage that risk. It only creates a disincentive for a contributor to make a patent claim based on their own contribution. <a name="_MailEndCompose"> Again, in this particular edge case I think the risk is low that a contributor would make that one slight change that then brings the technology under a patent that the very same contributor holds. But this would be a judgment call for the ED. Certainly the patent risk would be part of the equation in every case.<o:p></o:p></a></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Alice<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> Marc Ehrlich [mailto:mehrlich@us.ibm.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> Alice King<br><b>Cc:</b> legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org; 'Richard Fontana'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [legal-discuss] Trivial contributions and CLAs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi Alice!! Nice to know I am not the only one hanging out on this list and not responding much. Hope all's well with you!</span><br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>As it relates to IP I guess I do have a few concerns with the trajectory of this discussion. I apologize if I am missing something obvious and if so feel free to disregard this...</span><br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>For example how do we determine what "trivial contribution" is? Who makes that call? Would it be the same to all participants? Why are IBM and HP and others who have signed the CLA held to a different standard and denied the ability to make trivial contributions (not that I think we should be able to make them I don't think they should be made at all) but if some can make them why not all? </span><br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Most importantly it is the patent IP I think we should be worried about. What if that line or two of code trivially contributed completes the steps of a patent claim held by the contributer's company that then makes open stack users infringers of that code? Remember our committee discussions about contributors licenses which extend not only to the code they contribute but its combination with the work? This is exactly the same point. Even a trivial contribution in terms of size or function can render a body of code infringing. I think that one of the great benefits of the CLA is that it addresses that scenario. So in my view we need to think long and hard about letting companies take a pass on what everyone else has agreed to lest we find ourselves facing patent claims based on trivial additions. I would not expect (though please correct me if I am wrong) that someone planning on doing a patent clearance against the contributor when such contributions are made before they are deemed trivial? I would think that would be more than a trivial undertaking. </span><br><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sorry if I am missing something that covers us for patents but I think I have this right.</span><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Marc A. Ehrlich <br><br><br></span><br><br><img width=16 height=16 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.gif@01CF5E6D.680D9300" alt="Inactive hide details for "Alice King" ---04/22/2014 08:55:37 PM---Thank you Richard. That helps put it in perspective. The "><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#424282'>"Alice King" ---04/22/2014 08:55:37 PM---Thank you Richard. That helps put it in perspective. The process needs to permit a trusted person</span><br><br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>From: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"Alice King" <<a href="mailto:alice@alicelkingpc.com">alice@alicelkingpc.com</a>></span><br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>To: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>"'Richard Fontana'" <<a href="mailto:rfontana@redhat.com">rfontana@redhat.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org">legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org</a>>, </span><br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>Date: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>04/22/2014 08:55 PM</span><br><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#5F5F5F'>Subject: </span><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Re: [legal-discuss] Trivial contributions and CLAs</span><o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal><hr size=2 width="100%" noshade style='color:#8091A5' align=left></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thank you Richard. That helps put it in perspective. </span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br><br><tt>The process needs to permit a trusted person to exercise discretion in edge</tt><br><tt>cases like this. That is true of every process involving human interaction.</tt><br><tt>The Foundation Bylaws contemplate the Board giving this kind of edge-case</tt><br><tt>discretion to the Executive Director.</tt><br><br><tt>I don't see that there is much risk around intellectual property in this</tt><br><tt>kind of contribution. Who would make a claim? There is a secondary risk</tt><br><tt>that the project is viewed as being lax on IP issues generally, which would</tt><br><tt>scare off some users. I think this is also unlikely. My impression is that</tt><br><tt>the project is viewed as exercising an abundance of caution. </tt><br><br><tt>The kind of participation represented by this contribution is valuable.</tt><br><tt>Reward significantly outweighs risk.</tt><br><br><tt>Still on the list and felt like chiming in! </tt><br><br><tt>Alice</tt><br><br><br><tt>-----Original Message-----</tt><br><tt>From: Richard Fontana [<a href="mailto:rfontana@redhat.com">mailto:rfontana@redhat.com</a>] </tt><br><tt>Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:32 PM</tt><br><tt>To: <a href="mailto:legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org">legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org</a></tt><br><tt>Subject: Re: [legal-discuss] Trivial contributions and CLAs</tt><br><br><tt>For anyone on this list not accustomed to looking at such things, I think it</tt><br><tt>might be interesting to point out what this patch actually is and what</tt><br><tt>Stefano means by triviality (even though the CLA may not be the relevant</tt><br><tt>issue in this instance, the issue of contribution process around trivial</tt><br><tt>patches is the larger issue that Stefano was raising):</tt><br><br><tt>The patch would cause one existing line in one file:</tt><br><br><tt> options = sorted([(ip.id, ip.ip) for ip in ips if not ip.port_id])</tt><br><br><tt>to be replaced with this:</tt><br><tt> </tt><br><tt> options = sorted([(ip.id, ip.ip) for ip in ips if not ip.port_id],</tt><br><tt>key=lambda ip: ip[1])</tt><br><br><tt>That is: all this patch does is add the following text to one line of a</tt><br><tt>file:</tt><br><tt> ", key=lambda ip: ip[1]" </tt><br><tt>The file itself contains about ~100 lines of code, and Horizon, the relevant</tt><br><tt>project, contains, I believe, about 2000 files.</tt><br><br><tt>- RF</tt><br><br><br><tt>Stefano wrote:</tt><br><tt>> I have been notified of another very small patch that is left in a </tt><br><tt>> limbo, with the author not allowed to sign the CLA and the developers </tt><br><tt>> stuck in unknown legal territory. You can read more about it on</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> <a href="https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1308984">https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1308984</a></tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> From what I can see, the patch is trivial and shouldn't even be</tt><br><tt>copyrightable but the person spotting the issue and fixing it is not</tt><br><tt>comfortable signing the CLAs. Can any other developer copy the patch and put</tt><br><tt>it into our trunk? Until when is this sort of behaviour safe?</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> We're getting more of these small blockers and I think it's already a</tt><br><tt>problem. Having to sign a Corporate CLA and Individual CLA for a trivial</tt><br><tt>patch, from an operator (whose job is to run clouds, resulting in small and</tt><br><tt>rare patches, not to develop large features) can conflict with our effort to</tt><br><tt>get more operators involved in OpenStack.</tt><br><tt>></tt><br><tt>> I'm not sure what solutions are available. If we can't change the CLA</tt><br><tt>processes easily, what else can we do to get small contributions like these?</tt><br><br><br><tt>_______________________________________________</tt><br><tt>legal-discuss mailing list</tt><br><tt><a href="mailto:legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org">legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org</a></tt><br><tt><a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-discuss">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-discuss</a></tt><br><br><br><tt>_______________________________________________</tt><br><tt>legal-discuss mailing list</tt><br><tt><a href="mailto:legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org">legal-discuss@lists.openstack.org</a></tt><br><tt><a href="http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-discuss">http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-discuss</a></tt><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>